CONGRESSMAN FRANK: Yes, this is a very legitimate issue. As I said, this is not just a case of peccadilloes.

We,re not talking about travel only, about the bed was too soft and the golf was too frequent. We,re talking about a whole approach to public policy. And we think this illustrates this very distorted approach to public policy we,ve seen.

[House Republican Whip Congressman Roy] Blunt mentioned when we passed the highway bill - and he,s taking credit for that - the highway bill was supposed top have passed last year. It expired. If you talk to anyone who,s in the business of trying to build highways or plan highways they,re terribly frustrated that this Republican Congress has held it up so much.

They,ve held it up because the president, because of his other priorities, has insisted on holding highway spending and public transportation spending far below what even the Republican leaders in the Congress have thought was necessary.

But, yes, it is true. We do think Mr. DeLay is symptomatic of a corruption, frankly, of the public policy process. That,s more important to me than a question of this or that trip, or this or that payment to this or that relative, etc.

It,s the public policy process. You saw it in the Schiavo case. You see it in this assault on the judges.

What we,ve got are people who campaigned in 1994 as reformers, and they were going to change things. And in area after area, and Mr. Blunt made that clear. In 1997, they reformed the ethics process. They de-reformed it.

They have shut down the debate in the House of Representatives. And, in public policy terms, they are using that. He talks about some of the things that have come up.

But there are other issues that we would like to see come up on the floor of the House - health care for veterans. They didn,t just dump [Rep. Joel] Hefley as chairman of the Ethics Committee. They dumped Chris Smith of New Jersey as chairman of the Veterans Committee -- his term hadn,t expired - because he,d been fighting hard for veterans, benefits.

So, yes, we do think that Mr. DeLay,s grip on the Republican Party and the extreme right-wing positions that he,s articulated and used that grip to enforce are legitimate campaign issues. That,s what politics is all about.

TIM RUSSERT: You,re trying to make Tom DeLay a poster boy.

FRANK: No, Tom DeLay made Tom DeLay a poster boy. I was trying - yes, I did think for years that Tom DeLay,s influence as a very, very right-wing guy - who sincerely believe it, by the way - I don,t think this is a man who,s out to line his pockets. He happens to believe very sincerely.

I think he gets carried away. He, himself, admitted that when he kind of threatened judges with retribution, that that was words he shouldn,t have said.

But, yes, we,ve been trying to get across to people that while there is some moderate sounding Republicans, the heart of the Republican Party is this extremely conservative group that dominates.

And Mr. DeLay, I guess in part because of the Schiavo situation and his prominence there when they tried to order the federal court to do something - and they now, but the way, and I think this is relevant. The Republicans are threatening all kinds of action against these liberal judges who include, of course, Justices Scalia, Thomas and Rehnquist.

Yes, I think it,s very healthy for the country to understand what the Republicans really are and who they really are."